105 Comments
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Tell Katz your fact-checker is better than the entire team of them at The Atlantic. 😀

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It’s funny that there just are so few nazis on Substack that Katz has to write creative fiction to make the problem seem serious.

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We’re really scraping the bottom of the barrel for Nazis to turn into content these days. The leader of the Proud Boys is Puerto Rican. When I was young, the white supremacists were almost translucent.

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As they say, it appears that the demand for Nazis is far higher than the supply

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6 Nazis? There’s probably more Nazis at a Michigan game lol.

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The word “Nazi” is as meaningless as the term “racist.”

I’ve long given up on trying to maintain the importance of language and definitions in common discourse.

Hence no one I know cares a whit when called a “racist,” “Nazi” and all the other standard excommunications used to try to shut people up.

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For the left,everyone who disagrees with them is a Nazi

For the right,everyone who disagrees with them is a Communist

You have to admit,it is getting harder and harder for real Nazis and Communists to stand out from the crowd these days.

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I can’t believe Katz would approvingly retweet a post celebrating your future death. Usually with these types they just hint at it or privately share the sentiment amongst themselves. He must be uniquely unhinged about you

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Katz has deleted his twitter account, no doubt because it allows posts celebrating someone's future death.

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You must not spend a lot of time on twitter/x, haha. I can totally believe it.

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Jan 12Liked by Jesse Singal

I subscribed to The Economist and read your article.

I am very glad to see that attention is being given to the matter of cherry-picking data, and that in the future there may be an incentive to make primary data and research methods publicly available.

Plagiarism has been a matter of great interest in the news lately, but misrepresenting research findings deserves just as much attention.

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Cool, what’s his excuse for turning off comments THIS time

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He announced last month that he’d be turning them off globally as of 1/1.

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He’s left them on for five of his posts since 1/1.

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Ah, OK. I had unsubscribed completely a couple weeks ago (after a couple commentless ones), so I haven't noticed whether he had been consistent.

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This was really informative, Jesse. I was one of the anti Nazi signers (because who could be pro Nazi) and it’s disappointing to discover that it was much ado about nothing.

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And now you're gonna have to include a "no relation to Jonathan M Katz" disclaimer on all your posts! :)

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Right? Jewish people know that Katz is like the "Smith" of the Jews but the rest of the world might think we're part of the same Katz conspiracy.

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I thought Cohen served that role.

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This is something of a bummer, but it confirms some pet theories. I was a happy paid subscriber to the Atlantic for some years, but circa 2022 I grew extremely disillusioned with "actually pandemic such-and-such"--they're free to write and print those articles, and I'm free to stop paying for them.

All of that is to say--dangit, I wish shoddy feelingsball crap didn't get published. Some otherwise-good organizations have already fallen because they published such crap. More will follow. It sucks.

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The anxiety porn around COVID was actively harmful to my mental health. I spent two years thinking that these hypochondriacs and neurotics were going to lock me in my house for the rest of my life because every other article was about how the pandemic wasn't over and we needed to enforce more mask rules and This Is the New Normal. I can't be the only one.

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I have subscribed to the Atlantic for 30 years. Always liked it until the past few years. Their last issue was nothing but rants against Trump which is making me think of canceling. I don’t like Trump and most of the anti Trump articles were spot on but that is not what I like about The Atlantic. I don’t want an issue of ranting. I can get anti Trump screeds from MSNBC or CNN.

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The Atlantic has veered hard woke and hard trans since publishing Jesse's seminal article in 2018.

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You are so correct. It pains me because it was a great magazine.

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The good content is (was) still really good! That's what makes (made) evaluating the quotient so hard.

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Jan 13·edited Jan 13

I agree. I won’t be canceling my subscription right away but that total anti Trump issue really rocked me. There was no need for The Atlantic to devote an entire issue to ranting against Trump.

Why? Because, you dumb asses at The Atlantic, no one who is a MAGA Trumper reads your magazine! All you did was piss off and bore guys like me who don’t like Trump in the first place.

I just want your insightful articles about all kinds of things. Open mindedness. Yes that was The Atlantic I loved. I will cancel if it doesn’t get back to where it was. Unfortunately this Katz issue shows it may not.

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Paid media-generation organizations need to differentiate themselves. If you want to be a generic Trump-bad shitposter (and I agree 100,000% with that notion), I can get that for free on Shitter.

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I've been a reader for 20 years, and a subscriber for maybe 10. I enjoyed the open-minded perspectives and thoughtful articles. Didn't agree with all of them, but they were rarely ever poorly written and I felt like I'd learned something even in disagreement.

I just canceled my sub after reading this. This incompetence when it comes to simple facts is totally unacceptable, and they doubled-down on this with another piece about it ostensibly "reporting" on the controversy. That piece was poorly-thought-through and misleading.

Hopefully they'll manage to right the ship and earn my trust once again.

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I hope you are right that they will right the ship but I am afraid the Atlantic is sinking.

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I feel exactly the same way.

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Lol Katz. I first encountered that retard when Notes rolled out on Substack. I kept seeing Andrew Sullivan’s notes and Katz would always respond with something about how Sullivan was harming Katz’s pet victims. Such people are too antisocial to understand that society is more at peace when their pet victims are cowed into silence and don’t dare to make demands upon the majority. He’s just throwing a tantrum because the pendulum has swung back.

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Cool it with the "retard". Want to call him a jerk, a jackass, asinine, disingenuous, a self-righteousness fool more concerned with being on the right side than having his facts straight? Go right ahead. But "retard" is crass and smacks of making fun of actual disabled people.

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I don't approve of the term "retard." It comes from the term "Mentally retarded," which should not be used in a pejorative manner because it refers to innocent people.

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Note: calling somebody "mentally diverse" is both less offensive and more funny than "retard". Going forward: "Lol Katz. I first encountered that purveryor of mental diversity when Notes...."

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Fair enough! Good tip, I like to mix it up.

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I don’t think he’s emotionally grappled with everyone on this platform being forty and employed.

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I am not forty and take great exception to your comment!

Jokes aside, Katz is having a big sad that his precious media gatekeepers don’t have dominion over all mass communication. So he’s reduced to throwing tantrums in an effort to get clout.

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Matt Taibbi said that Katz is "destined to be eulogized as a parrot on the shoulder of Received Wisdom," which is such a sick burn.

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Just once, I'd like to hear one of these guys acknowledge how unpopular Nazism is. We literally won a war over this and they want to keep acting like we're one tweet away from fascism.

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I was talking (arguing) with people on the pro-censorship side when all this first came up, and multiple people seemingly sincerely claimed that the US is teetering on the edge of a Nazi takeover. Some of these people truly live in a different world.

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What is so annoying about all this is that Substack is amongst the online venues where I've encountered the least amount of nazi types. Sure a few right wing jerks here and there. (Maybe people even think I'm one. Sorry, can't help it occassionally!) But normally on sites like this you quickly bumble into the spot where you say "Oh here's the corner where the right wing crazies hang out." And I have yet to bumble into that here! I've bumbled into a "War & Peace" reading club. I've bumbled into a billion navel gazing pieces written about the act of writing itself. But no nazis! Mr. Katz, I find it shockingly nazi free here compared to most of the internet. I wish you had jusyblwt us have that. :(

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IKR. There's probably more nazis on YouTube. And all these folks fleeing Substack depend heavily on that search engine owner by YouTube's parent company (whatever it's called).

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Those of us who are familiar with the history of the Israel/Palestine debate and attempts to censor voices from one side or the other will know that one of the most notorious episodes occurred at the Oxford Union debate on the issue in 1964 between Lebanese writer Edward Atiyah (putting the pro-Palestinian case) and UK Labour MP Maurice Edelman (putting the pro-Israel case). Atiyah was shouted down as an alleged Nazi by the finest young minds in the United Kingdom, and in his efforts to make himself heard he suffered a fatal heart attack. The episode is described by Fred Halliday.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/arendt_deutscher_3813jsp/

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I think Casey spoke truer than he knew: the cause really isn't going anywhere. Why is Katz still trying to panic us into thinking it is going somewhere?

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Because it’s good money for him and the clout (“OMG Katz is such a gutmensch, he found those Nazis!”) doesn’t hurt.

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Katz is just going for eyeballs and clicks. It's working.

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The last passage on the way moderation is applied is the kilkstroke here. Open letter culture is about leveraging the ambiguity in the terms of service on these sites to gain power by silencing or smearing other people. Katz's campaign wouldn't have ended with far-right content - the goal was quite clearly to inculcate the same weaponised false moralism that plays out on every other (also Nazi-infested) platform, and then start to purge content from other 'problematic' writers. The only goal for Katz? Self-aggrandisement and profit, and the elimination of competitors. It's so nakedly obvious. And Platformer et. al leaving is a pyrrhic victory... now watch them pivot to saying *all* content creators left on Substack are Nazi-adjacent, or complicit.

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No doubt. Anne Helen Peterson is another name swept up in this, and in her letter to the Substack team a few weeks ago she included the phrase “Nazis (and anti-trans assholes)” as a description of the problem. No doubt in my mind even folks like Jesse would be on the ban list for some. https://substack.com/@annehelen/note/c-45993110?r=c7oc4

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One of the organizers of the SAN campaign, Marisa Kabas, also gives away the game in her latest post (and seemingly last, as she announces at the end that she too is leaving Substack):

"Substack is still not protecting its publishers and users against dangerous white supremacist content, and it’s certainly not protecting them against transphobic content—an issue that was raised by a group of trans publishers two years ago."

Not only does she state outright that the gender critics would be next on her list, her deployment of "protecting" twice in that sentence tells you all you need to know about how she views the desirability and utility of the marketplace of ideas.

https://www.thehandbasket.co/p/substack-says-it-will-ban-some-nazis

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The full body revulsion I feel at that use of “protecting.” Lady, I am not a child, I am not harmed by encountering ideas I disagree with on the internet, and even if someone else’s ideas were capable of harming me I am perfectly able to take steps to prevent that harm, including not reading said content or even - gasp - not using a particular platform. Good lord.

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When did the phrase “Bye, Felicia” go out of currency? This whole eventstream just feels like the ALL-CAPSiest Usenet Flounce of the decade.

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Substack's hands off policy is absolutely vital. If moderation is not a core principle, it's less likely to be weaponised. Besides I don't think Katz et al have any politics at all besides self-enrichment.

Clout chasing has completely obscured both sides of any debate we could mention in The Discourse. I like Substack because it's a place I can read both sides of an argument, usually both intelligent. This whole episode feels like a power play by those who hate that kind of nuance, and whose politics is basically 'the ends justify the means'. I always distrust that instinct! And I pay for Substacks by writers with whom I often disagree. Substack is for grownups.

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"Substack is for grownups" would make an excellent slogan for post-Katz recruitment marketing.

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There are major factual issues with the entity known as Jonathan M. Katz. It amuses me that many liberals think that the Atlantic is an august publication. There are so many lies and half-truths and pseudoinformation that lacks context in a plethora of mainstream media organs, yet liberals suck all this up. Look at the insanity of Russiagate, aka BlueAnon,

The last thing Katz is doing is fighting fascism. What he is really against is heterodox thought. That is why Substack is such a target for wastrels like Katz and his ilk. What are a few lies or mashed-up passages when you are trying to take down Substack? I cannot imagine Katz can look at himself in his own mirrors. They are probably cracked anyway.

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"It amuses me that many liberals think that the Atlantic is an august publication."

Because it was.

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I can but applaud your ability to keep a fair mind even in the middle of controversies, Jesse. Someone said that you sounded angry... if this is you being angry, you are a Zen monk.

This that we see, which we have been seeing for years now, is a reflection of a form of mental ailment that masquerades as politics -- something that Haidt and Lukianoff have identified pretty well: the hunger for censorship is the desperate call for protection of personalities that refuse to grow up, or who happily revert to this form of infantilism. "Mummy, daddy, Peter pulled me a tongue, make him stop!", "Mummy, daddy, the cat hissed at me, I don't like it, kick it out, kick it out!" They will never get tired of it. There will always be things that offend and irritate them and make them sad, because they are becoming increasingly incapable of dealing with reality, and it is always all or nothing, it is always maximalist, no compromise and no reflection: THIS THING IS OFFENSIVE AND IT HAS TO GO.

They have learned that mobbing works to get what they want, like children with poor parenting learn that throwing tantrums gets them what they want. They learned this because they did not get any substantial pushback, except from the hysteria on the opposite end (THIS IS INTOLERABLE! THE WORLD IS FALLING APART! SOCIETY WILL DISSOLVE INTO SHEER ANARCHY IF THIS IS ALLOWED TO EXIST, AND THE OGRES WILL EAT OUR INNOCENT CHILDREN! SAVE US GOD! BRING IN A STRONGMAN!) -- the few remaining reasonable adults were to cowed by the screams or stunned by the insurgence of so many "harms" (for harm is a concept which they rightfully learned to be very sensitive about), to make a firm stand for the principles of liberalism. One can debate about the many who ride these tigers for self-aggrandizement, but I am afraid that many have convinced themselves of the righteousness of the cause. Feels good to be an Elect, ask any cult member. So here we are.

There need be more people refusing to bend the results of inquiry to a desired narrative, even if it hurts, and more communities and organizations willing to stand on principle on free speech and not be budged.

There are bad attitudes and ugly ideas, yes. They must be countered, not silenced. Banning symbols, banning words, it is a temporary spike of satisfaction that changes nothing. In Europe we banned Nazis since the end of WWII; in Germany it is still illegal, and carries criminal charges, to make a gesture resembling the Nazi salute. So we have no Nazi, right? Wrong. The Nazis have multiplied everywhere... and right-thinking people have no resource against them than fits of outrage, because the imposed silence produced an inability to counter that ideology (the name is enough! -- no, the name is not enough) and to address the reasons why people may become attracted to that ideology.

For example. I am a paid subscriber of Freddie de Boer, and I continue to be, despite my disagreement on some of his opinions, and despite the fact that I find his position on Israel revolting on a human, political and personal level. His thinking head is worth listening to, and those of his opinions that are abhorrent to me should be heard and countered (even if I do not have the stomach to do so, I simply do not read those articles of his).

But I am beating a dead horse here.

P.S.

"5. is defamatory or libellous [sic];" <== That's British English. I do not know if this is the reason why, but the Ghost Foundation is based in Singapore, where they use British English. (Now I am tempted by a pun about American cultural imperialism but I will refrain)

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You’re a good person, Jesse Singal.

I do think there are important changes needed to how we think about online moderation, and I think what we need to settle on is something like due process. Here’s hoping the good guys win and we end up with something like that on substack.

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