Listen now (38 mins) | This is the first time I have ever recorded an audio interview and uploaded it to the internet! So this is very much an experiment and a work-in-progress — I am quite happy with the interview itself but naturally the production is rough around the edges. Please send me feedback, including suggestions of future interview subjects, at
Hey Jesse, really enjoyed this -- thanks for putting it out! The thing that Katie mentioned about her live event and how it was a lot easier to get along with people when they are in front of you makes perfect sense. This is a really good article on this phenomenon: https://areomagazine.com/2018/05/25/why-good-people-turn-bad-online/
From it: "Unlike in the offline world, there is no personal risk in confronting and exposing someone. It only takes a few clicks of a button and you don’t have to be physically nearby, so there is a lot more outrage expressed online. And it feeds itself. 'If you punish somebody for violating a norm, that makes you seem more trustworthy to others, so you can broadcast your moral character by expressing outrage and punishing social norm violations,' [Molly] Crockett says. “'And people believe that they are spreading good by expressing outrage – that it comes from a place of morality and righteousness.'"
I think your Katie and yourself would enjoy reading it!
Fun interview, thank you both for sharing! Is there an end to the lightning round? It just kind of cuts off. Also, I wanted to comment on what Katie said about Dave Rubin. While I really appreciate her open-minded attitude toward listening to people she disagrees with and fostering individual conversation, I found it discouraging that (at least according to the short interview) she seems to be giving Dave Rubin the same treatment that she herself has received. I'm a big fan of the Rubin Report and I don't think there's any evidence at all that Dave is a Republican or that he's become a Trump supporter. In fact, he openly qualifies himself as a left-leaning libertarian who often disagrees with the people he brings on his show. But the far-left media has labeled him problematic and therefore "untouchable" (in a way not dissimilar to what it's done to both of you). So I found it sad that, despite her own experience with such hearsay labeling, Katie is letting that taint her opinion of what I consider to be a very balanced, open, valuable podcast. Dave's doing some really good work (IMO) and I find it both tragic and distressing that smart people are ignoring him because someone else called him problematic. I'm sure there are valid criticisms of The Rubin Report and perhaps Katie has them (if so, I'd be happy to read/listen), but if she is responding because of "what people say", I hope she'd consider listening for herself.